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Thengel Reinstatement Effort 
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Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:19 pm
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Location: Montréal, Québec
Post Re: Thengel Reinstatement Effort
Benoist, your argument leads to a head-exploding contradiction. Bill resigned to avoid the appearance of mod abuse and in doing so, abused himself as a mod. So now if he reinstates himself, he is, in effect, approving of the mod who abused him in the first place. We're stuck.

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Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:58 pm
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Post Re: Thengel Reinstatement Effort
walkerp wrote:
Benoist, your argument leads to a head-exploding contradiction. Bill resigned to avoid the appearance of mod abuse and in doing so, abused himself as a mod. So now if he reinstates himself, he is, in effect, approving of the mod who abused him in the first place. We're stuck.

Not unless Jim reinstates Bill, and Bill accepts. He is in effect not necessarily agreeing with the mod abuse he was a victim of. That's the logical way to look at it for me, but there's logic, and there's doing the right thing, logical or not. Here, clearly, reinstating Bill as admin is the right thing to do.

Then, we try to find a solution to the conundrum that created this whole mess in the first place. Together.


Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:10 pm
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Post Re: Thengel Reinstatement Effort
Oh nicely maneuvred, Benoist. I now have no longer any doubts that you are a Frenchman.

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Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:21 pm
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Post Re: Thengel Reinstatement Effort
Nor you a Canadian, walker....

Nor I an American...

That is, after all, the point of why I'm having this discussion. I need to convince Bill that the lack of trust he perceives is not as bad as he perceives it. I will not reinstate him (even though I was goofing around making him an admin again behind the scenes - I would change it, then he would. Repeat.) without his agreement. Nor will I reinstate him if the community truly is of the opinion he should not be. I'm getting the sense this is not the case, though convincing Bill is proving difficult.

I would again refer everyone, including Bill, to my original treatise on this subject in the Separation of Church and State thread. Bill - you need to trust that if I thought it necessary, I would remove your admin status. After all, it's what I expected of you. That was the strength of having us both run the place. I do not see that as the case.

And everyone else either has to trust both of us to watch each other. If not, then I don't think it will work.

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Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:38 pm
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Post Re: Thengel Reinstatement Effort
Well, if Bill resigns then Jim needs to resign and the doors need to be closed. I'd give the folks who made those posts a chance to apologize. People can express all sorts of ideas without being obnoxious or impolite. Without that, just as many people can be driven away as what seems to be feared by some in this thread.

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Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:29 pm
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Post Re: Thengel Reinstatement Effort
Jim Skach wrote:
OK, Bill, I want to clarify a few things.

First, you put a lot of quotes up there, a few with which I am familiar. And if I'm not mistaken, Those are from only a few people. How many different people have said this - your quotes do no identify who has made this claim.

Five different people. Another 4 in PMs ranging from "I do not trust you as an admin" to more colorful descriptions of my heritage. And before you ask, no, I will not out people. That is precisely the kind of thing that they, and others, should rightfully fear. I am open though to discussing whether you feel this is the community or just a selection of individual posters.
Jim Skach wrote:
Second, I was unaware of PM's, of course, so I can see where you might be getting as upset as you did - as Benoist points out, I considered your reaction too much for the situation I was seeing.

Let me be clear, and perhaps I have not stated it clearly up to this point, I am not "pissed off" at the posters in that thread. They just happened to be there and posting in a vein I have been thinking about for some time, and I decided to step down. It is not because of "those posters in that thread" but because of a wider perception issue I believe exists. It is an extraordinarily easy one to fix as well. This is not banning me from the site. It is not taking away posting privileges. It is simply changing the face of the admins of this site.
Jim Skach wrote:
Third, the responsibility goes both ways. Just as you need the trust of the members here, we need to trust them. And part of that trust is not crying foul just because you or I disagree with them - even vehemently.

I am not sure what you mean here. I am not doing that if I understand what you mean. If anything, I am taking the most prolific posters at their stated word.
Jim Skach wrote:
The question here is whether or not the community trusts you to be an admin. While people have made some, IMHO, bad choices in the midst of a heated debate does not equate a failure in trust in you. As I've pointed out, if we used that as a yard stick, I should also have resigned.

I am not confident of this. 9 rather prolific posters (we do not have many so you can narrow it considerably) object in one form or another to me being an admin. I do not think you have those numbers. ;)

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Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:11 pm
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Post Re: Thengel Reinstatement Effort
I agree with everything you say, Jim. I would only limit that by saying it is ultimately up to Bill as it is his decision to make and I will respect what he finally chooses to do.

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Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:13 pm
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Post Re: Thengel Reinstatement Effort
Benoist wrote:
This is the exact same thing in my mind. The trust, the responsability, are themselves characteristics of a position of prestige, to me. That's probably why I formulated my thought the way I did. Resigning from a position of admin is like banning yourself, and in this instance, it is unwarranted, and unfair.

Not so to me. You hcan have a position of prestige and never have any responsibility. A celebrity is much like this (often but not always). To me, an elected official, which is what I view site admin as, is a public trust that requires the elected official to constantly win the approval, trust and even, to an extent, respect of his constituents. It tells others the kind of man such an elected official is if, when faced with the loss of trust of his constituents, that he continue in his position ignoring allegations or that loss of trust. A true tyrant will ignore the pleas of the community and bull on, enjoying his status.

I, have chosen to step down. It may be Jim is right and I have misinterpreted the situation. Let me be clear, unlike many on the internet, I will admit when I am wrong. This is a tricky situation though. It is not an infraction. It is not even an actual abuse of power (at least from my pov) but a questioning whether I am a good choice to be an admin. Since I have not had any opportunity to make any rulings, all I can point to is that the site is running and policy discussions.

In the end, this is an issue of perception and the image of the site. If the community believes I damage this so that posters say things like "I wold fucking leave RPG Haven" based on my comments.

Now, I am not sure how I can be convinced but I am a man of action. I tend to see a problem, analyze and come up with a solution which I then implement. It may be sudden to some folks but I have been thinking about this for about a month.

And in case any one is wondering, I do not do this lightly. I am not happy about it. I am not chortling in my bat cave over the woe I will cause the site. I am genuinely concerned and worried over what my actions may mean to the site. I want RPGHaven to succeed. I just do not see another viable path.

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Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:26 pm
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Post Re: Thengel Reinstatement Effort
Well, I have to admit - color me surprised. I had no idea. I mean, I could see some folks who might have signed up just to be able to tell you off - you are no shy flower. But to have people outright tell you they don't trust you as an admin is...well, I guess they do not know you like I do in the sense that I highly doubt (with, like, 99.9% surety) that you would abuse your mod powers.

Now, they might not trust me either, and so that statement won't make much of a difference. But I'd like to hear whether or not poeple trust me to watch after Bill or not. Because that was the entire point from the beginning.

Last point/issue - shouldn't you be a site admin for no other reason than you do all the tech stuff? Should I set up a user that would allow you to do that separate from Thengel? I don't want that to be the case, but I suppose I should start setting up contingencies.

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Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:30 pm
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Post Re: Thengel Reinstatement Effort
Jim Skach wrote:
Last point/issue - shouldn't you be a site admin for no other reason than you do all the tech stuff? Should I set up a user that would allow you to do that separate from Thengel? I don't want that to be the case, but I suppose I should start setting up contingencies.

I am not sure how to handle that part. There is still an Admin account that could be used but then the question comes up are "hiding" my status from the community. I agree, it would be awkward for me to try and send you detailed instructions in order to update the forum software. Should I set you up with PDF access to the server?

I am open to suggestions. Another account seems...problematic but does solve the new/browsing user viewing my posts and seeing Siute Admin under Thengel.

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Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:41 pm
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