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Modern Day Mafia Game 
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Post Re: Modern Day Mafia Game
JDCorley wrote:
I just said in the very quote you quoted that it's the prevalence and pervasive impact of sexual crimes that put it in a special category. It's like you're not reading what I'm writing. "2+2 is 4" "I see what you mean, but what do you think 2+2 really is".
You also said that if someone was likely to have been a victim of another crime in a group that you should steer clear of that subject. So on the one had you seem to be saying that one should be equally sensitive to all crimes (ie. if you sespect it might be a problem, don't address it), but on the other that people should be more sensitive to rape. In mathematical terms, it is like you are saying 1+3 is the same as 2+2, but 2+2 has greater weight. I'm trying to figure out which is it - that we should be equally sensitive to victims of all crimes or more sensitive to victims of rape. You don't seem the think that people should steer clear of all violence all the time. But you do seem to think people should steer clear of rape all the time.

Maybe if I try to rephrase the question: Given a situation where you happen to know that no member of your group will be hurt by exploring rape or any other violent topic, do you still feel that rape should not be addressed but that other topics like torture and murder can be?

JDCorley wrote:
So they are allowed to think it's a good idea, they're just not allowed to say that they think other people should use their good idea? Hm, interesting, tell me more good ideas that people should not say are good ideas.
To the best of my knowledge they are allowed to say or think whatever they like. All I'm saying is that it seems like a double standard to me to attempt to deny the general public the right to address one topic in their games while you yourself freely explore other similar topics in your games.

JDCorley wrote:
If you have 6 women in an American game group across the life of your game group, you can expect that one of them has been or will be sexually assaulted at some time in their lives. If you have any, it is almost a dead-lock certainty that they know someone close to them has been. Of course you could have a thousand women in your game group over many years and none of them might have been assaulted. But that is not the way you should bet.

Why on earth would our current group try to set a policy that's meant to cover an American game group for life? Instead, we set a policy based on the current members of the group. If those members change, then the policy would be re-examined as possibly changed, too. I'm unclear as to why you and the Informer think this is a bad way to set policy.

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Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:24 am
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Post Re: Modern Day Mafia Game
Thalaba wrote:
You also said that if someone was likely to have been a victim of another crime in a group that you should steer clear of that subject. So on the one had you seem to be saying that one should be equally sensitive to all crimes (ie. if you sespect it might be a problem, don't address it), but on the other that people should be more sensitive to rape. In mathematical terms, it is like you are saying 1+3 is the same as 2+2, but 2+2 has greater weight. I'm trying to figure out which is it - that we should be equally sensitive to victims of all crimes or more sensitive to victims of rape. You don't seem the think that people should steer clear of all violence all the time. But you do seem to think people should steer clear of rape all the time.


Because of it's prevalence. If we were gaming in Rwanda during the civil war, the prevalence of violence and its incredibly broad impact would make it so that we would need to address violence differently. If we were gaming in Chicago during Prohibition, the prevalence of gang violence and murders would make it so we would need to address those crimes differently. There is absolutely no contradiction or contrast in what I'm saying at all. Sexual assault is incredibly common and has a major impact on a wide range of people who game, so we need to address it differently.

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Maybe if I try to rephrase the question: Given a situation where you happen to know that no member of your group will be hurt by exploring rape or any other violent topic, do you still feel that rape should not be addressed but that other topics like torture and murder can be?


To me it seems unlikely that you would ever "happen to know" this for certain. But like I say, take the gamble if you want, so long as you're willing to take responsibility for the harm you might do.

Quote:
To the best of my knowledge they are allowed to say or think whatever they like. All I'm saying is that it seems like a double standard to me to attempt to deny the general public the right to address one topic in their games while you yourself freely explore other similar topics in your games.


People who say something isn't a good idea are denying you the right to do that thing, interesting theory, let's test it.

I say it's not a good idea to get wasted and run through traffic on the highway.

Have I denied you the right to do that? No. I haven't.

Theory disproven.

Quote:
Why on earth would our current group try to set a policy that's meant to cover an American game group for life? Instead, we set a policy based on the current members of the group. If those members change, then the policy would be re-examined as possibly changed, too. I'm unclear as to why you and the Informer think this is a bad way to set policy.


I didn't say it was, in fact I said it was a good way, so long as you know about the pervasive prevalence and impact of sexual assault?

But you should still be very cautious. If you go around the table and the first four people say "rape's cool by me, whatevs" and the fifth will be devastated, hurt, traumatized by your portrayal of rape, there is a zero percent chance that they will speak up about it. There is a 100 percent chance they will say "yep, it's okay with me too", because of that social risk and personal investment that face-to-face gaming creates. They will sit there being hurt and upset every session they come to. They won't tell you until it's irreparable.

And if you went around the table the other way you might reach a very different result.

So caution in deciding that you know for sure what people really think and feel about this topic is warranted. It's very difficult determining people's actual feelings about these kinds of things because of the way American society generally treats sexual assault as, for the most part, no big deal or the fault of the victim. (It generally doesn't treat murder this way, except insofar as parents are still blamed for their children's murders, so again, it's different from other sorts of violence.) Edit: Hell, rape while incarcerated is still an acceptable thing to joke about on primetime network TV.

(The most populous county in my state simply didn't investigate between 300 and 400 serious sexual assaults last year. It wasn't a priority for the police. And those are just the ones that were reported. Reporting of course declined as it became clearer and clearer that the police would do nothing about it.)


Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:37 pm
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Post Re: Modern Day Mafia Game
JDCorley wrote:
Because of it's prevalence....we need to address it differently.
I understand your position better now, but obviously we won't come to a meeting on the minds of this one. I can see you feel very passionate about it.

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People who say something isn't a good idea are denying you the right to do that thing, interesting theory, let's test it.
That isn't my theory, so testing it isn't an effective argument.

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I didn't say it was, in fact I said it was a good way, so long as you know about the pervasive prevalence and impact of sexual assault?
But you should still be very cautious.
Good. At least we agree on one point.

Quote:
If you go around the table and the first four people say "rape's cool by me, whatevs" and the fifth will be devastated, hurt, traumatized by your portrayal of rape, there is a zero percent chance that they will speak up about it. There is a 100 percent chance they will say "yep, it's okay with me too", because of that social risk and personal investment that face-to-face gaming creates. They will sit there being hurt and upset every session they come to. They won't tell you until it's irreparable.
In my personal experience, 100% of the people in the fifth seat wouldn't lie about their feelings, but I'll grant that your experience might be very different. However, even if only 50% or 25% are not going to give you a truthful answer, then you make a good case for not simply going around the table one by one and asking people in this manner.

Quote:
(The most populous county in my state simply didn't investigate between 300 and 400 serious sexual assaults last year. It wasn't a priority for the police. And those are just the ones that were reported. Reporting of course declined as it became clearer and clearer that the police would do nothing about it.)

This is an interesting and sobering statistic, but without also knowing how many instances of serious bullying (for instance) also went uninvestigated after being reported, I'm not sure how meaningful it in in the context of this conversation. You need to have a comparative statistic in order to demonstrate that something is more prevalent than something else.

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Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:27 pm
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Post Re: Modern Day Mafia Game
Thalaba wrote:
True, but as I said it's not violence that's the issue - it's the amount of glee you take in inflicting it on others. It's the intent factor


I took no glee and I wasn't a player, I was the GM. The way the players handled it was their choice. For two of the players that was the choice, for the other two players it wasn't

TheRPGInformer wrote:
First, for the Mafia game the violence makes sense because it is in context.
So, in a game of viking raiders, rape would be OK because it would be in context, then?

TheRPGInformer wrote:
This is true, but sending your cronies to beat up a guy that owes you money isn't one of those times.


No, but we are talking about a Mafia game where the context makes sense. And it wasn't me doing anything. They were given the assignment, they handled it how they wanted to. I was hands off (I am just the GM interpreting the rules).

TheRPGInformer wrote:
So it really isn't.


Yep, it is.


Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:39 pm
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Post Re: Modern Day Mafia Game
Thalaba wrote:
Quote:
People who say something isn't a good idea are denying you the right to do that thing, interesting theory, let's test it.
That isn't my theory, so testing it isn't an effective argument.



Wow, you don't even read what you yourself write:

Thalaba wrote:
...it seems like a double standard to me to attempt to deny the general public the right to address one topic in their games while you yourself freely explore other similar topics in your games.


People who say "you shouldn't use rape in your RPGs" are not attempting to "deny the general public the right to address one topic in their games". They are saying it's a bad idea and they disapprove. That is not the same thing at all.

Quote:
This is an interesting and sobering statistic, but without also knowing how many instances of serious bullying (for instance) also went uninvestigated after being reported, I'm not sure how meaningful it in in the context of this conversation. You need to have a comparative statistic in order to demonstrate that something is more prevalent than something else.


Absolutely there may be other issues that need to be looked at closely as well. If bullying is an issue you feel strongly about, I support you in improving how the hobby approaches bullying issues both in- and out- of game.

In fact, I think given the prevalence of bullying you need to be on the lookout for people who might be affected by bullying in roleplay situations. You might omit details, skip over situations, fade to black, or go another route if you are concerned that it might hurt one of your players to get too into the details of a bullying scenario.

And I would add that when I ran a very big LARP for several years, bullying "through the character" was a problem we had to address, so I certainly can imagine a situation where a player (whether a GM or not) goes over a line with respect to the portrayal of bullying and things get really bad.

The relationships between the real people involed in the game must always, one hundred percent of the time, take precedence over any fidelity to game rules, fictional content, or anything inside the game. The game world is not real, fuck the game world, the people around the table are the only thing that counts.


Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:16 pm
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Post Re: Modern Day Mafia Game
JDCorley wrote:
Wow, you don't even read what you yourself write
Don't be silly. You misquoted what I wrote the first time around to give your point more impact. I refuse to engage with you under those conditions.

JDCorley wrote:
People who say "you shouldn't use rape in your RPGs" are not attempting to "deny the general public the right to address one topic in their games". They are saying it's a bad idea and they disapprove. That is not the same thing at all.
You're right, I ackowledge that an attempt to sway public opinion needn't necessarily extend to the actual denying of rights. I take back what I said about rights.

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Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:42 pm
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Post Re: Modern Day Mafia Game
Bringing this back on topic....

We are looking like we are going to get a 4th player so this game may be back on soon. I will let everyone know and of course, keep a game log of what happens


Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:42 pm
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Post Re: Modern Day Mafia Game
TheRPGInformer wrote:
Bringing this back on topic....

We are looking like we are going to get a 4th player so this game may be back on soon. I will let everyone know and of course, keep a game log of what happens


Good news. May the murder and mayhem rekindle. :dance:


Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:17 am
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Post Re: Modern Day Mafia Game
RedBlok wrote:
Good news. May the murder and mayhem rekindle. :dance:


That's what I am hoping for. The nice thing is that with this kind of game, when a person leaves the game you can say they were killed off off-screen or went into witness protection.

I will let you know what happens


Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:33 am
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